[imp] hide messages marked for deletion or purge deleted messages

[Chris Lafty]

Hi,

I know this has come up on the list before, so I apologize for redundant
questions, but my question is slightly different as I've accepted that
you can't hide deleted messages if you use the trash folder. This
doesn't make sense to me, but oh well. I am testing the latest imp/dimp
and I've noticed one difference from the previous version. It used to
be when you deleted a message that was already marked for deletion, it
would expunge/purge all other messages that were marked for deletion.
This doesn't seem to be the case. A lot of our clients use Thunderbird
(IMAP) and of course Thunderbird marks messages for deletion and hides
them. When the client logs onto imp/dimp, they see all of their deleted
messages. Is there a way we can purge the mailbox if a user deletes a
message that was marked for deletion? We'd still like regular messages
moved to the trash upon deletion, but not marked for deletion.
Obviously, we don't want this to apply to messages already marked for
deletion. If this is not possible with tweaking config files, can
someone point me to the relevant php files?

relevant settings from imp/config/prefs.php:

// hide deleted
$_prefs['delhide'] = array(
'value' => 1,
'locked' => true,
'shared' => false,
'type' => 'implicit');

$_prefs['use_trash'] = array(
'value' => 1,
'locked' => false,
'shared' => false,
'type' => 'checkbox',
'desc' => _("When deleting messages, move them to your Trash folder
instead of marking them as deleted?"));

Let me know if you need to see other settings.

RHEL 5.2, PHP 5.1, 64 bit, IMAP

-C
--
---------------------------------------
Christopher Lafty
Systems Administrator - Windows and Linux
132 Madill Hall
St. Lawrence University
clafty at stlawu.edu

Telephone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
---------------------------------------

[Joseph Brennan]

A lot of our clients use Thunderbird (IMAP) and of course Thunderbird
marks messages for deletion and hides them. When the client logs onto
imp/dimp, they see all of their deleted messages. Is there a way we can
purge the mailbox if a user deletes a message that was marked for
deletion? We'd still like regular messages moved to the trash upon
deletion, but not marked for deletion. Obviously, we don't want this to
apply to messages already marked for deletion.

Wow, I got lost in those sentences.

The problem is the inconsistent configurations on Thunderbird and IMP.
Thunderbird simply marks messages deleted. IMP copies them to Trash,
marks them deleted, and (at some point) expunges the mailbox.

When you have IMP configured to save to Trash, what do you think it
should do when it opens inbox and finds messages marked deleted? That
probably means those messages were not saved to Trash. Should it copy
them to Trash? Or should you have to use IMP's "delete" command to
get them copied to Trash? Either way the next expunge will remove
them. I don't know if there's a clean answer to this.

You could have both Tbird and IMP use Trash, or both not.


Joseph Brennan
Columbia University Information Technology

[Chris Lafty]

In Thunderbird:
Delete a message --> copies the message to trash --> marks the original
message for deletion and hides it. Gets expunged at some point.

In IMP (our config):
Delete a message --> copies the message to trash --> removes the
original message.

Both scenarios are fine. It's a problem when the person logs onto imp
and sees messages marked for deletion from Thunderbird. It is much
easier to make changes on a server than 1,000 client machines.
Unfortunately, Thunderbird isn't controlled by Active Directory. I just
don't see why IMP ever has to show messages that have been marked for
deletion if it copies them to the trash.. But I'm probably not going to
win this argument, so I just want to know why the new version doesn't
expunge the entire mailbox when you delete a message that has already
been marked for deletion.

---------------------------------------
Christopher Lafty
Systems Administrator - Windows and Linux
132 Madill Hall
St. Lawrence University
clafty at stlawu.edu

Telephone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
---------------------------------------

Post by Joseph Brennan

A lot of our clients use Thunderbird (IMAP) and of course Thunderbird
marks messages for deletion and hides them. When the client logs onto
imp/dimp, they see all of their deleted messages. Is there a way we can
purge the mailbox if a user deletes a message that was marked for
deletion? We'd still like regular messages moved to the trash upon
deletion, but not marked for deletion. Obviously, we don't want this to
apply to messages already marked for deletion.

Wow, I got lost in those sentences.
The problem is the inconsistent configurations on Thunderbird and IMP.
Thunderbird simply marks messages deleted. IMP copies them to Trash,
marks them deleted, and (at some point) expunges the mailbox.
When you have IMP configured to save to Trash, what do you think it
should do when it opens inbox and finds messages marked deleted? That
probably means those messages were not saved to Trash. Should it copy
them to Trash? Or should you have to use IMP's "delete" command to
get them copied to Trash? Either way the next expunge will remove
them. I don't know if there's a clean answer to this.
You could have both Tbird and IMP use Trash, or both not.
Joseph Brennan
Columbia University Information Technology

[Michael M Slusarz]

Post by Chris Lafty
Delete a message --> copies the message to trash --> marks the
original message for deletion and hides it. Gets expunged at some
point.
Delete a message --> copies the message to trash --> removes the
original message.

I realized I am biased, but our way of doing this seems to make a
whole lot more sense than Thunderbird's way. Move message to Trash
when deleted means just that - when I click move I want that message
to be gone forever from the mailbox I am deleting from. This needs to
be an atomic operation, not a lazy operation.

Post by Chris Lafty
Both scenarios are fine. It's a problem when the person logs onto
imp and sees messages marked for deletion from Thunderbird. It is
much easier to make changes on a server than 1,000 client machines.
Unfortunately, Thunderbird isn't controlled by Active Directory. I
just don't see why IMP ever has to show messages that have been
marked for deletion if it copies them to the trash.. But I'm
probably not going to win this argument, so I just want to know why
the new version doesn't expunge the entire mailbox when you delete a
message that has already been marked for deletion.

Because you would be making an *extremely* ill-advised assumption. If
you set "move messages to Trash" option in IMP, that literally means
"move any message I delete using the IMP interface to the Trash". You
apparently want that to mean instead "move any message I delete using
the IMP interface, along with messages that I may/many not know are
deleted, and may not even appear in my current view, to the Trash."
But that's not what IMP's option says it is going to do.

Deleting *any* message is the most destructive operation possible with
IMAP, so you need to make especially sure that you are 100% sure the
user wants to delete. If you are only 99% sure the user wants to
delete those messages, you simply can't do it. Those are just the
facts of life (and UI design).

michael

[Chris Lafty]

I prefer IMP's method over Thunderbird. Kudos to the imp team.

I want one of two things..

1. Hide any messages that have been marked for deletion (just hide) and
still use the trash folder.
or
2. Expunge all messages marked for deletion (in the same folder) when I
delete a message that has been marked for deletion.

I think it is silly that I have to check 20 boxes next to messages that
have been marked for deletion (thunderbird's laziness) and hit delete.
At the same time a copy exists in my trash folder.

-C

---------------------------------------
Christopher Lafty
Systems Administrator - Windows and Linux
132 Madill Hall
St. Lawrence University
clafty at stlawu.edu

Telephone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
---------------------------------------

Post by Michael M Slusarz

Post by Chris Lafty
Delete a message --> copies the message to trash --> marks the
original message for deletion and hides it. Gets expunged at some
point.
Delete a message --> copies the message to trash --> removes the
original message.

I realized I am biased, but our way of doing this seems to make a
whole lot more sense than Thunderbird's way. Move message to Trash
when deleted means just that - when I click move I want that message
to be gone forever from the mailbox I am deleting from. This needs to
be an atomic operation, not a lazy operation.

Post by Chris Lafty
Both scenarios are fine. It's a problem when the person logs onto
imp and sees messages marked for deletion from Thunderbird. It is
much easier to make changes on a server than 1,000 client machines.
Unfortunately, Thunderbird isn't controlled by Active Directory. I
just don't see why IMP ever has to show messages that have been
marked for deletion if it copies them to the trash.. But I'm
probably not going to win this argument, so I just want to know why
the new version doesn't expunge the entire mailbox when you delete a
message that has already been marked for deletion.

Because you would be making an *extremely* ill-advised assumption. If
you set "move messages to Trash" option in IMP, that literally means
"move any message I delete using the IMP interface to the Trash". You
apparently want that to mean instead "move any message I delete using
the IMP interface, along with messages that I may/many not know are
deleted, and may not even appear in my current view, to the Trash."
But that's not what IMP's option says it is going to do.
Deleting *any* message is the most destructive operation possible with
IMAP, so you need to make especially sure that you are 100% sure the
user wants to delete. If you are only 99% sure the user wants to
delete those messages, you simply can't do it. Those are just the
facts of life (and UI design).
michael

[Andrew Morgan]

Post by Chris Lafty
I prefer IMP's method over Thunderbird. Kudos to the imp team.
I want one of two things..
1. Hide any messages that have been marked for deletion (just hide) and
still use the trash folder.
or
2. Expunge all messages marked for deletion (in the same folder) when I
delete a message that has been marked for deletion.
I think it is silly that I have to check 20 boxes next to messages that have
been marked for deletion (thunderbird's laziness) and hit delete. At the
same time a copy exists in my trash folder.

Have you looked at the Virtual Trash feature in IMP? Maybe that will do
what you want.

Andy

[Michael M Slusarz]

Post by Andrew Morgan

Post by Chris Lafty
I prefer IMP's method over Thunderbird. Kudos to the imp team.
I want one of two things..
1. Hide any messages that have been marked for deletion (just
hide) and still use the trash folder.
or
2. Expunge all messages marked for deletion (in the same folder)
when I delete a message that has been marked for deletion.
I think it is silly that I have to check 20 boxes next to messages
that have been marked for deletion (thunderbird's laziness) and hit
delete. At the same time a copy exists in my trash folder.

Have you looked at the Virtual Trash feature in IMP? Maybe that
will do what you want.

Not unless the messages are flagged as deleted in the Trash folder
(which shouldn't be the case).

michael

[Tim Bannister]

If you set "move messages to Trash" option in IMP, that literally
means "move any message I delete using the IMP interface to the
Trash". You apparently want that to mean instead "move any message I
delete using the IMP interface, along with messages that I may/many
not know are deleted, and may not even appear in my current view, to
the Trash." But that's not what IMP's option says it is going to do.

That does sound to me as if users would not expect it.

Deleting *any* message is the most destructive operation possible with
IMAP, so you need to make especially sure that you are 100% sure the
user wants to delete. If you are only 99% sure the user wants to
delete those messages, you simply can't do it. Those are just the
facts of life (and UI design).

IMP's approach is a little more risky for people who use another client:
if the other client sets the \Deleted flag but does not use a Trash
folder, this means that when they delete a message with IMP, they
expunge all those messages without knowing that they have done this.

There is a Thunderbird bug which I think is slightly relevant:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=220064

[Michael M Slusarz]

Post by Tim Bannister
if the other client sets the \Deleted flag but does not use a Trash
folder, this means that when they delete a message with IMP, they
expunge all those messages without knowing that they have done this.

This is an incorrect statement. If deleting by moving to Trash, only
the deleted message is expunged - any preexisting deleted messages
will remain in that mailbox.

michael